SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Been married 18 months, no kids but one puppy, together for 6 years, and I (28M) think my wife (27F) is emotionally cheating on me and not actually willing to work on the relationship issues we've been struggling with. We are both lawyers; the "OM" described below is an attorney at her law firm, he is my age, too.

Need advice, encouragement, and perspective. (Long post, sorry!)

TL;DR: Based on my reading of others’ experiences, and various articles, and my own feelings, I am concerned that my wife is emotionally cheating on me (I share examples in the long thread). My therapist and close friends who know the details all think that my wife’s behavior is NOT OK, but I’m struggling with the best way to initiate a conversation with her that will be open and honest and productive. If she is emotionally invested in someone else, I don’t think I want to continue being in a relationship with her. But I want her to tell me that so I can have some sort of confidence in making my decision moving forward because right now I feel like I’m trying to stand still on shaking sands and I’m hurting and it all absolutely sucks.

Sorry for the long post. I'm happy to answer any questions or provide further details as needed--just ask! So things have been pretty rocky between my wife and I for several months. We had a rough 2020, (didn't most of us??) but I thought it was more due to the stress of my job, then COVID-19, then she lost her job and my job started getting worse as I felt a stressful anxiety to perform even better as the only income earner at the time. Then she started a new job and we sort of...drifted apart. Early this year we had a talk about this where I expressed my sadness that we are so distant and haven't connected in a long time. We haven't been physically intimate in nearly all this time tier. In early April I commenced individual therapy and it has really helped me process my thoughts and feelings and I've been actively trying to share those with my wife and be confident in being vulnerable and honest and genuine.

She told me, however, that she feels like she is smothered and overwhelmed and needs space--which I've tried to respect and give to her. Through all of this, though, she's indicated that she does want to work on improving things with me and getting to a place where we can both be happy. So I've had hope that if I keep trying and putting in effort, things will move toward a better place.

It hasn't. I don't know if anything I'm doing is helping or hurting. Giving space, trying to be more supportive of her, not trying to be controlling or restrictive....she still seems so far away. I find myself holding back things if normally be excited to tell her about because she gives off a vibe that I annoy and distract and bother her. I brought this up to her and how I felt like she's not putting in much effort from my point of view, and that I don't think there's a way to improve our relationship without actually spending time together talking about it and addressing it. She indicated that she had been "trying and putting in effort" for the past year and felt like i was the one who wasn't doing anything and now she's kinda burnt out? I apologized and said I can't change what I did or did not do in the past, but I'm ready and willing and trying hard to fix things now, but I need her help too.

She didn't have much to say to that. And because of the distance between us, I've started to notice how close she has gotten with a coworker of hers. A single guy, about my age. They see each other every day, go out to lunch almost every day (sometimes just the two of them, sometimes with others). My wife frequently stays late at work and, though not confirmed to me, I'm pretty sure he's always there too. They go out for drinks with coworkers and have attended soccer games together, just the two of them, and then gone out to bars and I know they've gone over to his place till after midnight as well.

This all makes me feel super uneasy and hurt. My wife doesn't do any of this with me. In fact it seems like a chore to her to have to spend time with me. But she willingly and gleefully seems to adore being around this guy (I'll call him Mark for ease of reference). This has been happening since like early March at least. I didn't bring anything up then because

1. she even mentioned to me that she didn't want to make me sad by hanging out with Mark, but that he's a "good guy" and had "never tried anything";

2. things were starting to get rocky between me and her and I wasn't confident enough to assert myself;

3. I didn't want to feel like the "jealous boyfriend type" and tell her she can't be friends with a guy.

Well, as things have deteriorated between us and I've observed her talking to him and spending what seems like most of her time with him, it's been hurting me more and more. I told her last week that they are making me uncomfortable. She asked "well, what do you want me to do about it?" And I felt very strongly that she should be the one to decide what she wants to do with the information I give to her about my feelings on her closeness with Mark. She never suggested anything, just said that I can "put my mind at ease about that" and it kinda tapered off into her accusing me of not trusting her. I told her that I do trust her to jot do anything physical with him but that I do not trust mark because I don't know him. She seemed taken aback by that.

After I told my wife that I was uncomfortable with her and Mark being together so much and their "friendship" or whatever it is, I felt very strongly that I shouldn't tell her what to do or anything. I didn't want her to feel controlled by me, but she also didn't propose anything to resolve this herself. The next few days I did notice she was at home more often and didn't go out for her usual drinks and happy hour with coworkers, which usually resulted in her spending extra time afterwards with Mark. I could tell she was sad and really down and I ended up telling her that I want her to be happy and do what makes her happy and I worry that she basically took that to mean that she should continue doing whatever she's doing with Mark regardless of my feelings.

I've spoken with my therapist about my feelings on this and what I'm wary about and what is giving me pause and anxiety about my wife's friendship with her coworker.

I told my therapist about how it makes me uncomfortable that my wife And Mark see each other all the time. That she chooses actively to spend more time with Mark than me. That she seems to constantly be texting him. That I've seen her sitting on the other couch near me, texting him long threads or continually chatting when I am lucky when she sends me three texts during the day.

...That she has on several occasions gone out drinking with him and then went over to his place and didn't get home until around 2am when he drove her home??? That just last weekend she brought our dog over while she went out with some girl friends and had Mark dogsit while I was out of town and didn't even tell me about that until after the fact...

That she seems to be happier when she comes back from hanging out with him or when she's talking him. That reminds me of how she seemed and acted when we were first dating and getting to know each other and that crushes me. I just have really weird gut feelings about the whole thing. From my perspective --which is the only one I have since she won't talk to me about this--I feel like lines have been crossed that should not be in a marriage. In fairness to her, maybe she doesn't think any boundaries have been broken. Or maybe she is "towing the line" and it's only a matter of time until stuff gets physical.

...I told my therapist that it hurt me when I explicitly told my wife last Sunday that her closeness with him is making me uncomfortable and uneasy she immediately responded with "well we are just friends, so you can put your mind at ease about that". And then immediately shifted the conversation to "well what do you want me to do about it? He's one of the few things that have brought me happiness and support lately" which absolutely crushed me. It doesn't feel to me like they are "just friends" and I can't shake the weird feeling. And it makes me feel so bad and guilty to feel like this, because I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst...but also I feel like my feelings are valid and deserve to be respected too.

Anyway, after I told her that I want her to be happy and do what makes her happy, this past Saturday night she went to a coworkers wedding with a big group. This has been planned for a while, it was a small wedding, and I didnt go. Mark was there. They all got super drunk together and then a DD brought her home at 1am and she was absolutely wasted and while I was helping get her into bed and making sure she'd be OK, she just kept repeating over and over "how's mark? Is mark ok? Did mark get home?" And I said "im sure he's fine. I don't have his number, you can find out tomorrow." Then she goes: "I know his number!" and started saying my number. That hurt. Then she kept asking about how he was doing and if he was ok until she fell asleep.

Now, a couple days out of that moment and still processing it, I feel even more like she's totally lost feelings and attraction for me and that she's not just friends with this guy but is more emotionally invested in him than she's willing to let on or maybe even admit to herself.

It's really hurting me and I can't get it out of my head and my mind keeps wandering and assuming things and I really want to have a real honest conversation about this with her but am nervous that

1. it's going to come out as accusatory and interrogative on my part and make her super defensive and dismissive from the get go; and

2. I get all hung up that I already "shut the door" on this issue and shouldn't rehash it with her because I already brought up that I'm uncomfortable with their dynamic and then a few days later told her I just want her to be happy and do what makes her happy.

I'm constantly hurting. I feel like a doormat. I wish I had figured things out sooner and stood my ground better. There's a pit in my stomach. I don't have an appetite. I'm not sleeping. I'm losing weight. I can't focus or concentrate. I worry all the time about if she's flirting with him or texting him sexual stuff or hugging him or if they cuddle when they're together -- all things she doesn't do with me. I get angry because he's a single dude who also actively chooses to spend all his time with a married woman--what's in it for him?? And then i feel guilty about feeling all this stuff...

Anyway. I'd love some advice. I just want this hurt to stop. I want her to be honest with me. If she's done with "us", then tell me. If she would rather be with him, then tell me. If she's emotionally cheating, I want her to know that, own it, and understand how it's hurting me.

How can I broach this subject with her? Should I? How can I get some...answers and definition about the dynamic between her and Mark but not in an accustory/interrogative way? Is she emotionally cheating on me? How should I confront this?

My therapist didn't really have suggestions for me beyond "yes you should have this conversation and you should firmly know going into what your boundaries for a married relationship, even one that's rocky, are and what is and is not okay for your partner to do."

I've confided in several close friends and my sister about the details I shared here and every single one of them thought it was fucked up, even for my wife to be doing in a marriage where everything was okay. That makes me feel a bit more validated, but I still don't know the best way to go about initiating this conversation and having it be an open and honest discussion where my thoughts and feelings can be heard and where she doesn't immediately feel defensive and defective.

Please help. I welcome any and all advice, comments, thoughts. And please be blunt. Feel free to DM as well.

[This message edited by CheesecakeBaker at 1:53 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

Are there any kids?

Are there any kids?

No kids, but we do have a puppy.

How old is the OM?

Has he been married or any kids?

Every spouse has a right to feel safe from infidelity. And every spouse has an obligation to avoid suspicious behavior. Your wife failed big time.

Based on her behavior with the OM (and after only 18 months of marriage), it's not up to you to prove she's cheating. It's up to her to prove she's not.

IMO your next steps/strategy should assume she's committing adultery. It's up to her to prove she's innocent.

- see an attorney about how divorce will impact you

- separate bank accounts

- insist on 100% NC with the OM (which requires her to change jobs)

- insist on full access to her texts (on the spot or any chance to R is off the table). Do not give her a chance to wipe the phone.

- check the phone records for their call history

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 3:44 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

At the very least the OM is a wedge between you two. Why should she work on her marriage when she gets her needs satisfied by the OM (instead of from you).

She's now comparing you to him. But she doesn't really know him so he's perfect - so it's a contest you can't win.

Going NC with the OM is the consequence of her spending so much time alone with him and dating him (instead of her husband).

If she wants to stay married she has a simple choice to make: her husband vs 'just a friend'

If she hesitates, you have your answer.

IMO you've been too patient and allowed her to violate too many boundaries that couples use to protect their marriage from infidelity. She sees you as weak.

Consequently it will require a very rigid and serere reaction from you in order for her to take you seriously.

She needs to believe you will divorce rather than tolerate any further contact with the OM (bluff if you have to).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:01 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

I’m sorry you are in this position. You are a young guy who clearly loves his wife but unfortunately she’s not as into you or the marriage as she should be.

You are trying and invested. She is not.

She is openly dating someone and sadly she’s roped you in and manipulated you to allow it. Coworkers going to wedding without spouses? How convenient! Or maybe she’s the only one who didn’t bring a spouse.

Your dog at Mark’s house?? Oh hell no!!!!! That’s unacceptable.

Ask your wife this - if you two are “friends” why am I excluded?

My H had a 4 year emotional affair snd the girl pretended to be my friend. She used me to get to have contact with him. A group would go out on a weekend - I was there and she was there too. All in the up and up — but I always knew she liked him more than a friend. And my H did nothing to stop it.

Just like your wife.

She’s knows what she is doing is wrong. But she selfishly does it anyway.

It may come down to the “him or me” conversation. I faced that during my H’s last affair. He chose me but his actions were towards choosing her. I told him to end it - he lied and said he did. Turns out he didn’t. When I found out I showed him the door.

If you say “him or me” you must be prepared to leave her or throw her out if your home. Otherwise you lose all credibility with her and she will continue to treat you like a doormat.

I’m so sorry for you.

Ask your wife if they've kissed (excluding a peck on the cheek or briefly on the lips).

Liars, often admit to 'just' a kiss because they think it's harmless and you'll stop asking questions.

Studies of infidelity show that a kiss is actually the last boundary that once crossed leads to sex. Under the circumstances where they date and have spent time alone, if they kissed then they had sex.

With respect to TRUST:

It's not about you trusting your wife.

All human beings are hardwired to bond emotionally and physically with others. Therefore, to protect a marriage, there are certain behaviors (boundaries) that couples voluntarily adhere to in order to avoid forming 'personal' relationships that expose the marriage to a high risk of infidelity.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 1:53 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

What I would suggest is that you read her text messages without her knowing.

If she is deleting them,if they are texting in the extreem,if they are sending pictures, if she is talking badly about you, if they are flirting... it's all going to be in the messages. You will get your answer.

You sound a bit like you are walking on eggshells. You are right. Your WW is having an emotional affair. She is putting far more into her relationship with "friend" than her relationship with her husband. You are not going to be able to fix this with your behavior... she has to want to change, has to see that she needs to change.

The emotional cheating and the lack of caring about your concerns is enough information for you to question if their is more going on. For you to lose trust in her. Please look at her phone before you confront again.

Also, look at phone records. How many texts/calls per day with OM?

That she has on several occasions gone out drinking with him and then went over to his place and didn't get home until around 2am when he drove her home???

Hell no.

Also why didn't she invite you to the wedding she went to?

STOP with the worrying about her feeling like you don't trust her.

I don't care how much I trust my partner, if they are at someone's house of the opposite sex drinking and coming home at 2 AM I am confronting them.

She sounds very disrespectful!!!

I think she knows you are worried about sounding like you don't trust her or sounding insecure or controlling.

It isn't controlling to expect your wife to behave like - I dunno - a WIFE!

I'm sorry brother, but your "wife" is doing you wrong. In more ways than one.

Your wife's treatment of you would be horrible and unacceptable even if you and she were in the middle of nowhere locked in a Faraday cage with no one else she could possibly be communicating with. But a huge additional thing here is that she is putting another man before you. And this is assuming that "nothing" happened between her and "Mark". Yeah, right! What I am saying is that you better believe that she is in the middle of an affair, with PIV sex and everything.

Talking to your wife, as if she is a partner in good faith, has not worked. It never does in these situations, because she is NOT a partner in good faith. The Pick-Me Dance---i.e., contorting yourself into a pretzel to be the best husband ever--NEVER works either. So you best stop both.

Forget expecting her to be straight up with you. If you do not stand up for yourself, she will keep on stringing you along, out of guilt, not wanting to feel like she is a bad person for giving up on the marriage, etc. (All selfish reasons BTW, it is all about HER not feeling bad nevermind your feelings of hurt.) The only way this will get solved though is for you to take charge, and move forward with regards to divorce. If she wakes up and fights for you and cuts Mark completely out, then there is time for you to change your mind.

ETA: And there is NO justification for your wife as a married woman to be turning to another man for support as she has, whether your M was good or not good. I nearly forgot to mention this.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:26 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

Brother,

Blunt time, she is dating him! Lunches, happy hour that leads to ongoing one on one drinks. Long texting threads in front of you. Late night visits. Nah this is dating.

Can you get that phone? Read all the texts and recover the deleted texts, pictures, emails etc.

Does she use Snapchat or other non recording communication apps?

She may not having sex with the OM but Her mind and emotions are with him. She is a one woman man, but her husband isn’t that man.

What does her and your family think of her actions? As her actions doesn’t pass the pub test.

Can you go without notice to the happy hour? Tag along with the dinners etc. Do a drop in visit to her work place with gifts flowers etc to see Mark.

Definitely she is at the minimum having a EA but I believe she is doing more?

What are her employers guide lines for work place relationships? Her quotes give me the feelings she is sleeping with him.

She won’t change, why should she. There has been no consequences for her actions or conscious decisions to keep this ongoing relationship with Mark. Hire a PI, get a VAR in her car, get her family involved. This isn’t being controlling you are fighting for your marriage. Document everything she says or does. If the rolls were reversed she would be screaming at you. Start the 180 from now, all the trying to nice her back into the marriage and doing the pick me dance in her eyes she sees you as weak. Mark strong BS weak.

One day at a time and watch, verify and document.

[This message edited by Buffer at 2:18 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

If she's staying at his place until 2 am, then you can be sure they are doing more than just talking. How often has this happened?

Another red flag is that you have had sex in months. This is not normal for newlyweds.

If she is claiming she is being smothered, this is yet another huge red flag.

Whether she is in an affair or not, she is not acting like she wants to be married but at the same time does not want to take any action. Maybe you need to take action on knocking her off the fence. Either she is in or out. No in between.

ETA. While I don't disagree with anything Buffer just said, it seems like an awful lot of work to keep someone who already had one foot out the door. Deep down, what are you getting out of this marriage?

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 2:24 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

This does not look good at all. I am familiar with where you are. It sucks. My wife displayed some of these same behaviors even employed the "he's a good guy" and "he wouldn't be stupid enough to try something" lines. It seems she is infatuated with him, which is problem enough. Given the amount of time they are together, I would guess some physical things have happened. You can't win this one by being a good guy, a good husband, or accomodating her needs. All that goes nowhere. You can try to slog through this and stay married. That will be a long and miserable slog. No kids and young, I recommend you talk to a divorce lawyer to get the lay of the land. As a lawyer you may have an advantage in knowing who in town has a good reputation and you may even know someone personally who can lay things out for you. As I am sure you know it is important to choose wisely. I am a lawyer and first talked to a former colleague of mine who in retrospect I think was too close the situation and maybe not worldly wise enough to give me better advice than I got from her. Later I talked to the divorce lawyer I knew to have the best reputation in town for having represented most of the other laywers and doctors in town who had gotten divorced. Talking to the lawyer at this stage is for information and to get a sense of how things are likely to unfold if this does end in divorce. From what I have read so far, you may find that is the best course for you. The emotional stuff in this is gutting and you and your marriage will never be the same.

Hi CheesecakeBaker, what makes you think that the affair is only emotional not physical? From your 1st post she had many many chances to make it physical.

And where do you put your boundary? At which point do you think she crossed the final line? Cause I see she has been crossing each and every line even afer being told about your discomfort.

[This message edited by BindassBP at 3:00 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

Strap in buddy.

Mark is not her friend. She is dating Mark.

Maybe they haven't had sex yet, but they are definitely dating. My wife was dating her EA partner. At least twice behind my back. Sometimes, like you, in front of your face (disclosed 1-on-1 at lunch for example). That's a date.

Here is what you are going to have to get comfortable with when you make your next confrontation. You don't trust your wife. That's fine. Honestly you shouldn't, she gives you reason to not trust her, and she is continuing to hurt you after you asked her to stop. She doesn't care about your feelings, and is continuing to see this guy. She is flipping it around on you when the reality is she isn't showing you *devotion* which is something most people expect in a marriage. It's 100% not controlling to expect devotion from your spouse.

Now, let's say she doesn't want to be devoted. That's fine, she can do that as not your spouse.

Ask to see their text messages. Check it against your phone bill. I bet you $1000 there are hundreds or thousands of deleted texts.

You need to figure out just how far things have gone, because they are already off the rails. Your WW is in perhaps still in a state of self-deception that what she is doing isn't cheating (which is something almost all cheaters tell themselves).

Here is the very good news: No kids, short marriage, and she is working as a lawyer -you may be able to get out of this will little complexity or cost. What used to be called a "starter marriage." You are quite fortunate in that regard.

CB, there is a whole lot of smoke here, and you are absolutely right to be concerned.

Totally agree with This0is0Fine. Ask to see her phone and cross reference the text messages to what’s in her phone.

She may not have taken this physical, but I would highly doubt it. They have had ample opportunities to take this physical.

She is disrespecting your marriage and your valid concerns about this “friendship”. Some cheaters compartmentalize their A’s, essentially living two parallel lives. I don’t see any additional confrontation from you without evidence being very useful. She is already turning everything around and manipulating you. Her being “sad” by staying at home with her HUSBAND is very telling. She probably knows you very well and acted this all out so you would “let her” go out and continue this relationship.

All I can suggest is to gather as much evidence as you can and confront. But, when you confront, you need to be strong and stick to your guns. Not trying to be mean, but you are coming across as weak and she knows how to manipulate you.

Meanwhile CCB, I do find myself wondering why your therapist has not urged more action-taking on your part to resolve this. Surely he or she can see that merely talking about this i.e., only managing your feelings about this situation while you talk about it in their office with no action items, is about useless, right?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:31 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

This is clearly an EA and very likely a PA. Do not believe for an instant the bullcrap your wife is feeding you that they are "just friends." This is typical cheater's language. I'd tell her that she seems much more invested in Mark than you. Better to get to the bottom of how invested she is with him. Do not let her snow you. She has absolutely no business spending so much time with him or her work colleagues. Your marriage is short. Do not waste time with someone who has checked out. It sounds like she has done so. Basically, it sounds like there is nothing you can do at this point other than getting tough. Either she realizes that her extracurricular activities are destroying the marriage or she just doesn't care. Do not be a lamp post watching as this entire thing goes south. Do not take responsibility for anything. I would also look for a therapist versed in infidelity. Your therapist seems worthless.

[This message edited by src9043 at 5:01 PM, June 22nd (Tuesday)]

I am sorry you are in this horrible situation. Let's try to get you out of it.

Your wife is being unfaithful to you and is lying to you.

Stop taking her so literally, esp. when she says you are being too controlling. You are controlling her so much that she's actively dating in front of your face! She's controlling you!

You should pick up "Not Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. The author was one of the world's leading authors on infidelity. The book and excerpts are available on Amazon.

Here are a few quotes that I think are appropriate to your situation.

"the transition from friendship to affair is barely perceptible-- to both participants and observers. The boundaries shift slowly."

But I wonder once she met Mark, if it was almost instantaneous. You mentioned how she drifted from you after starting this new job.

it is a bigger leap to that first kiss than it is from kissing to sexual intercourse.

You do not need evidence of physical infidelity to divorce. You can D for any reason. But if you want to know, and your sleuthing, VARs, PI, whatever, does not give you a definitive answer, ask your W how physical they've gone.

She'll likely give up that they just kissed. Then you know it's likely a PA. Two adults, esp. two drunk adults who are hot for each other don't stay up until the wee hours alone at his house to play cards.

I think it's obvious they've been physical for a while. If you want to know for sure, coming out and asking her may force them to lay low for while while you calm down. They work together. They can keep the affair going between the hours of 9 to 5 for years if they want. So I don't recommend that at first.

I think you need to integrate into this group of people from her work. I'd do it yourself. Wherever and whenever she goes out, make it a point to go with her. I'd bet their relationship as a couple is openly accepted by all their coworkers.

If you don't want to make waves, tell her you plan on getting to know Mark. Then stick to her like glue at the bars after work. She can talk to Mark all she wants while she's standing next to you.

Are you sure the coworkers even know she's married? To you not him?

If not you, hire a PI. I've seen this before. They are the couple and you are the guy left at home feeding the dog and paying the bills.

“Unfaithful persons often say they are protecting their partners from pain, but they are really protecting themselves from exposure so they can continue to live the double life.”

I'm not even sure she wants to continue the double life much longer. As a married woman in love with a single guy, she is keenly aware that Mark is free to date anyone he wants. She is the one who is anxious that another younger, prettier, more innocent, single young woman will take a fancy to him.

That is why I would say that the die is already cast whether she is going to leave you or not for Mark. If not, you must end this relationship ASAP. The bonds between them get stronger every single time they are together to make new memories.

I don't think anything you do going forward will change her mind. If you demand she go NC with him-- and you should-- she will either acquiesce, separate or go underground. I think she already knows what it will be. I think you know too.

If it comes to it, please do not be as timid as you have been about confronting her. If she won't give him up, have her served with D papers and hope it snaps her out of it. She needs to know you found your backbone. She needs to start looking up to you and wondering what your next move is.

P.S. I'd want to know what happened the night she was drunk and a DD (I don't know what that is) brought her home. It sounds like something like a car accident or something serious happened. It's common that the BS discovers an affair when the WS gets in an accident or some sort of incident involving the police or hospital. They get caught being where they shouldn't be, with who they shouldn't be and sometimes comes to light if reports or records have to be made about it.